Do you believe in Fate?

Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 3:58 pm

Do you believe in Fate?

Me? No im a scientist ...

To me fate is another one of those things to make people feel special.
Im not blind, and i never want to be.

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:23 am

iahag wrote:

Do you believe in Fate?

Me? No im a scientist ...

To me fate is another one of those things to make people feel special.
Im not blind, and i never want to be.

3 quick questions:
What do you think of determinism?
What does your professional life have to do with your personal beliefs?
And what field are you in?

Defining fate is pretty central to this debate, I think. Some would undoubtedly consider fate something inherently supernatural, like the will of a god for example.
Since the closest thing I come to supernatural beliefs, is wondering whether we live in a multiverse, I obviously do not believe in that sort of fate.

On the other hand, if we by fate mean cause->effect, I fast become less certain. Who's to say our concept of free will, isn't simply an illusion grounded in our limited comprehension of cosmos?

As I see it, the idea of determinism might be real. The causallity is much, much too complex to even begin to understand, so while the concept may seem rediculous at first glance, I wouldn't want to give odds on it (hehe).
Did you really decide the flavour of soda you bought yestoday, or was your purchace the result of a set of events so complex, that it just seems like your will had something to do with it? [insert line from Hamlet]

All I know is that we - the sentients of planet Earth - currently are in no position to determine whether or not cosmos is deterministic, and I seriously doubt we ever will be. Not that I think that's a bad thing. I honestly think it'd be a disaster for our species, if we somehow managed to figure out that cosmos is deterministic.

Of course, I personally operate under the assumption that we have free will. Everyone does. I can't even begin to imagine how a human being would - or could - function under any other assumption. Determinism might just be the one reason to feel good about the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle Razz

.. I shudder to think what it'd be like to discover that one is nothing but the backseat driver of one's own life..

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:55 am

This idea of determinism, everything decided already, does challenge the very will of life.

Quote:

Of course, I personally operate under the assumption that we have free will. Everyone does. I can't even begin to imagine how a human being would - or could - function under any other assumption. Determinism might just be the one reason to feel good about the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle

What are you saying, that we have a conscience? What you are saying is that the group of biological tissues that compile our brain does not affect the direct result of how we react to X situation, and that there is actually a conscience there? It is clear, that your experiences, your genes, your history play a large part in your decisions and ethics. Is this chemical, or is this conscience? If it be conscience, then whos to say the Universe doesnt have a conscience?
What is conscience? The ability to be an unpredictabal being by which, what other path you choose, whatever value you pick, is completely unpredictable given that we know everything there is to know about you. Such that you cannot be determined.

People will argue, that God doesnt play dice, and that everything is determined by God, undeniably. Yet, i bet you these people, will also argue that Humans have a conscience, and that we are undeterminable, unlike the rest of the universe.

Perhaps, when you feel free, like you can do anything you please, its your mind producing this feeling, producing this emotion. Whos to say it doesnt?

Many would agree that electrons are random, they obey probability statistics only, and that the next step an electron can take cannot be predicted without doubt. It can only be estimated, by probability with respect to the field its in and charges alike... If there is a conscience, is it wholely random, or does it obey probability statitics, or is it completely determinable?

One would relate conscience to electrons and say they are alike, a conscience has a greater probability to take X path than Y path, nevertheless, the conscience still has the option to take Y path.
This is free will. This is how you can predict friends, but never be a 100% certain.

One would relate properties of electrons to that of conscience because the brain works on electrical impulses.

To question the will of life, is to question life itself. The more adapt survive, the less dont. Perhaps free will is a direct result of evolution, to give a being a sense of freedom and effectively a greater will to survive.

The mind isnt clear, its analogue, its uncertain yes, but to a degree. You can often predict how a friend will react to a situation. People have personalitys, which means there brains are tailored in certain ways.

Is what i write now a result of numerous chemical and physical processes far too complex for anyone to understand? Such that before i came home today, one could predict, excatly what this entire post would be? Or is it that, we do have paths to take, various words to choose, or are we just completely random?

You cannot use the feeling of free will as proof. Just as you cannot use the feeling of solid matter a proof of a physical reality.

My stand point, and the only logical stand point is that we obey probability statistics, in that, we have to choice to do as we please, its just, we have more chance of doing X activity than Y activity based on your personality.

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:27 am

Quote:

.. I shudder to think what it'd be like to discover that one is nothing but the backseat driver of one's own life..

Its not that bad Razz

In fact, for a moment, i actually convinced myself that iam completely deterministic. Whats wrong with taking a ride eh?

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:31 am

When people say, "It was fate that I met you here", or somthing like that, it seems to imply a purpose. By a supreme being or maybe because things, within the random chaos of things, fall in order as if by a universal law.

But those explainations of fate are probably, to me, just another extension of the human ego and creativity. They "feel" that things fell into place, and it is hard to bush off such an un-probable experience, so they take a leap of faith and 'believe' in this kind of fate. But you can not get to these kind of answers through "feelings", because those cloud judgement.

I would say that a cause->effect kind of fate is probable (Disconnected put it well). But of course you would have to, like you said, put away the belief that your free-will makes your life un-determainable. You would have to say it is just as determainable as putting in an equation for how long it would take train A to get to Chicago if....to me this is not that hard to believe. Most of what/how we feel/act seems to follow a cause->effect line, and, to borrow from iahag's post, "perhaps free will is a direct result of evolution, to give a being a sense of freedom and effectively a greater will to survive." It would make sense if all of the reactions and feelings were as simple as that, but don't tell a religious person that! And this type of reasoning dosen't fly within the mainstream. To me it seems logical, but that kind of stuff crosses a line with some people.

And I accept that we are probably the first and only biological creatures for thousands of light-years to even ask these kinds of questions, so I doubt that we have the perspective/knowledge/ect., to come close to the really hard questions; I mean, half of our population can barely answer the 'train A to Chicago' equation...let's leave this one up to the next dominate species.

Quote:

Of course, I personally operate under the assumption that we have free will. Everyone does. I can't even begin to imagine how a human being would - or could - function under any other assumption.

Your right. I find that deep reality and reason has little to do with our day to day lives. Mostly because we make our own realities. When you assume a reality, you react to that reality. When you make your own reality, you control your reactions. That sounds a little phony, so I'll throw in this example; Thinking that you are 'the man' makes you act like it, and it's a good way to act smooth with the ladies.

And while I'm on the subject, the people that let their lives revolve around death and darkness and dwell on it all the time do just that , let their lives revolve around death and darkness

hate to end this on a dark note, but it's 4:30am

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:25 am

the movie "signs" really made me believe in fate Very Happy

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:37 am

oh yeah and i personally do not believe in fate

Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:46 pm

iahag wrote:

Do you believe in Fate?

Me? No im a scientist ...

To me fate is another one of those things to make people feel special.
Im not blind, and i never want to be.

You are your fate, you make your fate, Fate is choices you made with the laws of average, If you walk outside in a thunderstorm you are 100 times more likely to be hit by lightning, Keep it real and you'll make better choices Very Happy

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:33 pm

AW wrote:

You are your fate, you make your fate, Fate is choices you made with the laws of average, If you walk outside in a thunderstorm you are 100 times more likely to be hit by lightning, Keep it real and you'll make better choices Very Happy

This is what I believe. Well written, better than I would have been able to put it in words. Smile

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:54 pm

This is a topic I've pondered frequently for years and a question I'm inclined to answer 'yes' under the same reasoning as disconnected's post.

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:00 am

Well think whatever makes you happy until we determine whether the cosmos is deterministic Razz

. Which wont be in your lifetime.

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:07 am

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Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:33 pm

no i dont believe in fate.

this debate will turn into a religious one in a couple o hours - and no im not religious.

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:57 am

ooh.. good thread, good question; great replies so far.

I'm pleasantly surprised that someone had brought up the philosophy of Determinism (well read crowd). I've always had two problems with Determinism. One, the futher back you go, the harder it is to justify except two, when it comes to humanity; basically, most every other plant, animal or mineral on the earth serves a function that ultimately preserves the continuation of the planet and it's eco system, but then we come along with our brains and ingenuity and are effectively spiraling it all to premature destruction due to our abuse of our surrounding resources (and regretfully, abusing each other directly or indirectly in the process). So our existence negates the natural order of things and breaks the inertia of determinism.

But I wouldn't go as far as saying I believe this is humanity's fate ; merely my analysis of where we're at.

Ultimately, no, I do not believe in fate, but I do believe in probability and likelihood (otherwise, we'd be consumed with fear or insanity because we wouldn't have have a reasonable expectation of anything).

I support the notion that humanity in general and individuals in particular author their own lives..but most of us don't write very well (and plagiarize heavily).

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:20 am

surroundingechos wrote:

This is a topic I've pondered frequently for years and a question I'm inclined to answer 'yes' under the same reasoning as disconnected's post.

Really? Hehehe, I answered no Laughing

NoImNot wrote:

I've always had two problems with Determinism.

The great thing about Determinism is that it is unfalsifiable, just like religion. That some elements seems to be too complex to be deterministic can easily be excused with our limited capacity to gather & process information. It could be argued that chaos theory (probability predictions in non-linear dynamic systems) actually supports Determinism. In chaotic systems, seemingly random outcomes are produced by slight alterations in dynamics that at-a-glance should have no effect on outcomes. This could be said to be an argument for our inability to interpret & process cause-effect relationships.

This problem exists at all levels, even the most basic. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle holds that a degree of uncertainty is always present in observations. Assuming that's true, Determinism is inherently unfalsifiable, because causality calculations will always involve a margin of error & this margin of error will introduce chaotic results. Thus we can determine the validity of Determinism is inherently indeterminable (man, I've been dying to write that this whole post).

In the end, Determinism is no different than religion. Nothing indicated the universe is Deterministic, but we don't know that it is impossible. Just like with other superstitions, I'm an agnostic adeterminist (new word Cool

).

Our tendency to destroy ourselves is not something I view as a certainty. In all likelyhood, we've been around for about 150,000 years in much the same manner we are now. Of that time, we've only spend around 0.3% of it living unsustainable lives.

Our technological development & economic system is, of course, to blame for this sudden shift, but considering that we only becan to realise that our lifestyle is unsustainable about 40 years ago, but are already starting to act on this discovery, in spite of the fact that we only have vague ideas of how to cope, I'm fairly optimistic.

Quote:

Ultimately, no, I do not believe in fate, but I do believe in probability and likelihood (otherwise, we'd be consumed with fear or insanity because we wouldn't have have a reasonable expectation of anything).

I support the notion that humanity in general and individuals in particular author their own lives..but most of us don't write very well (and plagiarize heavily).

I second that opinion (what's that about plagiarizing again? Razz

).