your country

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:54 am

conor147 wrote:

patriotism is blind and foolish. being proud of an accident of birth is inherently stupid.

Thanks for bringing some balance to the force, conor147 . Well done.

I think people should learn that a thread in the Debates section needs some contrary points of view to work. Also, that true debating doesn't consist of mere flaming and shutting someone down because they have said something one disagrees with. Answer intelligently and thoughtfully, encouraging further discussion. Passion is great, but bad temper is pathetic.

Iron sharpens iron and one would be well served reading the posts of some of the former Forums greats and appreciate how varied views and differing opinions should be handled.

I've already made my stand and given good reasons why I'm a proud Aussie patriot.
Just here : http://ca.isohunt.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=116405&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60

But for the sake of the discussion and for some balance, here are some more quotes about patriotism from significant people you might enjoy.

Quote:

Never was a patriot yet, but was a fool. – John Dryden

A patriot is a fool in every age . – Alexander Pope.

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. – Samuel Johnson

In Dr. Johnson’s famous dictionary, patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer, I beg to submit that it is the first. – Ambrose Bierce

Patriotism is as fierce as a fever, pitiless as the grave, blind as a stone, and irrational as a headless hen. – Ambrose Bierce

That pernicious sentiment, “Our country, right or wrong. – James Russell Lowell

“My country right or wrong” is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, “My mother drunk or sober.” – G. K. Chesterton

Patriotism which has the quality of intoxication is a danger not only to its native land but to the world, and “My country never wrong” is an even more dangerous maxim than “My country, right or wrong.” – Bertrand Russell

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious. – George Bernard Shaw

You’ll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy . – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is an ephemeral motive that scarcely ever outlasts the particular threat to society that aroused it. – Denis Diderot

To me, it seems a dreadful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography. – George Santayana

The Athenian democracy suffered much from that narrowness of patriotism which is the ruin of all nations. – H.G. Wells

Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. “Patriotism” is its cult. . . . Just as love for one individual which excludes the love for others is not love, love for one’s country which is not part of one’s love for humanity is not love, but idolatrous worship. – Erich Fromm

One of the great attractions of patriotism–it fulfills our worst wishes. In the person of our nation we are able, vicariously, to bully and cheat, Bully and cheat, what’s more, with a feeling that we are profoundly virtuous . – Aldous Huxley

Many studies have discovered a close link between prejudice and “patriotism” . . . Extreme bigots are almost always super-patriots. – Gordon Allport

Patriotism varies, from a noble devotion to a moral lunacy. – William Inge

Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority . – Arthur Schopenhauer

Patriotism is the passion of fools and the most foolish of passions. – Arthur Schopenhauer

Patriotism corrupts history. – Goethe

Into the cultural and technological system of the modern world, the patriotic spirit fits like dust in the eyes and sand in the bearings. Its net contribution to the outcome is obscuration, distrust, and retardation at every point where it touches the fortunes of modern mankind. – Thorstein Veblen

The standardization of mass-production carries with it a tendency to standardize a mass-mind, producing a willing conformity, not merely to common ways of living, but to common ways of thinking and common valuations. The worst defect of patriotism is its tendency to foster and impose this common mind, and so to stifle the innumerable germs of liberty. – J.A. Hobson

At the bottom of all patriotism is war: that is why I am no patriot. – Jules Renard

No other factor in history, not even religion, has produced so many wars as has the clash of national egotisms sanctified by the name of patriotism. – Preserved Smith

Naturally the common people don’t want war . . . Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders . . . All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism. – Hermann Goering .

That worst outcrop of herd life, the military system, which I abhor . . . This plague-spot of civilization ought to be abolished with all possible speed. Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism–how passionately I hate them! – Albert Einstein

Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism . – George Washington

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism. – Thomas Jefferson

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:16 am

i preferred "Patriotism varies, from a noble devotion to a moral lunacy." by William Inge

i've seen a lot of countries free themselves from dictatorships in last year's Arab Spring. from autocratic regimes to militaristic dictatorships. it is truly a long road to reconciliation and governmental reconstruction. some will hope for a better tomorrow, yet others might just be switching from one dictatorship to another. only time will tell.

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:47 am

Yes. I am Canadian and damn proud of it! I think it is a great place to be and while there certainly are some hang ups, there are more good than bad things about being here.

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:54 am

every country has its flaws. no doubt there is room for improvement.

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:49 am

Some great thoughts in there, Illinga.

From birth I've been taught to salute the flag and respect the national anthem....conditioned to regard patriotism as a virtue. Yet, I can see where those learned gentlemen are coming from.

From the point of view of people who concern themselves with bringing about peace and understanding among the diverse peoples of the world....it must be the single most divisive force they could possibly encounter. Second perhaps only to religion, in my view, leastwise in the modern world.

Truly national concern over-rides right or wrong. Ethics and morality rarely find a place higher than that of a pawn in the game of nations. To be used as a feint or to be sacrificed to kill the king.

Thanks Illinga, for I hadn't ever thought of patriotism quite in that light.

And this opposed to what? Patriotism does what good exactly. Unites a people, perhaps. For what purpose? A long list....but foremost among them, undeniably, would be war. Perhaps only in defence of the homeland? But such is the unquestioning devotion demanded by the concept of patriotism, it is akin to blindness (so the great minds say). Even offensive action can be portrayed as defending something.....a way of life perhaps? Liberty? Democracy?

Is that such a bad thing? Have not men always died to protect those? Perhaps.....but it is the manner in which patriotism promotes the protection of these that must be questioned. The consequences of those acts that must dealt with, when finally the pieces cannot be hidden under the carpet.

Would I be wrong to say that the modern day threat of terrorism we face is the direct result of patriotism?

Interesting, interesting lines of reasoning. I must remember to think more on this. In the end, reduced to its most basic, stripped of all emotion, patriotism is merely another form of control.

Still, I am a patriot. I cannot deny that. But, perhaps not quite so blind as I was yesterday! Wink

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:15 am

WhiteViper wrote:

Would I be wrong to say that the modern day threat of terrorism we face is the direct result of patriotism?

no you wouldn't. in fact this lunacy has caused people to believe they are convicting themselves to a noble act only to be sentencing themselves to more pain and suffering. whether it is just on themselves and/or others.

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:59 am

Thanks for this post Illinga. Yes, it does conger up some thoughts. Unfortunately when I read the bulk of the quotes I see them as reference to war and or dying for your country. I feel Patriotism goes further and deeper than that. It is possibly because traditionally Canadians are see as quiet, perhaps mild peace keepers. I hope so. It can also been seen through the two world wars and many other conflicts what role the Canadians played in those and how the involvement of my forefathers effects those out comes. But I think one can say that this runs deeper. For me, being Canadian means I can travel abroad and by bearing the Canadian flag, I can and will be welcome in most any land, whereas the same can not be said for...say...Americans. I'm not knocking any one here. Certainly Canada is a country built from diverse cultures as are most and while there are times when immigration is limited there are times when it is not. Every country needs to keep themselves safe from outside threats and we do no different.

If you take a look at Patriotism in other lights, no less obscure, you'll find cheering for a favorite sporting team to be no less mind numbing. You see on smaller scales the effects of this from rioting when a team loses to rampant celebration when that team wins. In Canada, you see that with ice hockey. Extreme patriotism when we host the Canada Cup, when our team plays and when our team wins or loses. But in either case there is no rioting or anything of the sort. Not that I'm saying here that a nation needs to be viewed only by or judged on the staunch loyalty (Patriotism) of it's sports supporters. It's the quiet Canadian way.

Also, when I read some of the above quotes, it seems that these learned minds are drawing a direct parallel that Patriotism is Communism - hmm, there's food for thought...just throwing it out there. Does that make communist countries more or less patriotic? Either way, does it make them stronger, or perhaps weaker? I'm certain these thoughts could be debated endlessly.

A couple of other quotes relate to Patriotism as being nothing more than conceit..."believing and supporting your country from the viewpoint that it is because you were born there". Another way of looking at this would be supporting the country because you have taken a look at other countries around you and you have made the conscious decision that you feel very fortunate to have been born here. For that you are willing to protect this way of life through the necessary sacrifices because you believe in what you understand your country stands for. Again, be that right or wrong, be that educated opinion or somewhat blind devotion. Again though, if you take it out of the confining context of war, then you would see that the supporting and or defending of what you believe to be correct is not a bad thing. In my opinion the question did not have a direct correlation with it's being asked in a "war" context.

Again though I just wanted to point out that patriotism comes in many forms and in a lot of the instances people view it in the "war" aspect - sure it has been the strings by which the puppet masters control the masses, but it is not true, in my opinion that it can all be related only to war but to a great many other aspects of life.

Oh, I just wanted to add that in my opinion War is the greatest form of pornography there possibly could be and I'd be happy if it were banned in all it's forms forever. But that too is maybe only just a Canadian version of an opinion.

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:50 am

That is precisely the concept of patriotism we are all brought up to believe in. The greatness and rightness of our own countries and whatever stands it has taken. Our history books will justify and reaffirm those stands. Which in itself is no great wrong but when people support thier lands even when those stands are wrong...that is where the blindness comes in. That is when patriotism is no more than a form of control being exerted by those in power to achieve ends that suit them, whether they actually believe it also suits their nation is open to debate.

We must look a little deeper to understand the blatant disregard these gentlemen have for the concept.

Dixie 12 wrote:

Unfortunately when I read the bulk of the quotes I see them as reference to war and or dying for your country. I feel Patriotism goes further and deeper than that.

How can any concept go deeper than dying for it's sake? Wink

You can only go so far in support of something. That is why war is the crux of the matter. Such is the fervor of patriotism that it can easily be manipulated by others for wrong ends. To oppose it, is to risk high treason. It is upto us, to ensure that we are not so blinded by it, that those lives are not lost in vain or for purposes that are not worthy. But so often does this happen, that it is understandable that those who perceive the deception, regard the deceived as utterly foolish, vainly proud to the point of standing in the way of right, even to the extreme of dying. Is it any wonder, then, that they are so vehemently opposed to it.

Clothing a harsh political reality in words of moral philosophy is never easy. The true meaning is obscured so easily.

Quote:

It is possibly because traditionally Canadians are see as quiet, perhaps mild peace keepers. I hope so. It can also been seen through the two world wars and many other conflicts what role the Canadians played in those and how the involvement of my forefathers effects those out comes. But I think one can say that this runs deeper. For me, being Canadian means I can travel abroad and by bearing the Canadian flag, I can and will be welcome in most any land, whereas the same can not be said for...say...Americans. I'm not knocking any one here. Certainly Canada is a country built from diverse cultures as are most and while there are times when immigration is limited there are times when it is not. Every country needs to keep themselves safe from outside threats and we do no different.

I rather think, you will find that when it comes to the world wars nearly every country, that was not part of the evil side (for lack of a better expression), has something to be proud of. And these are good reasons to be proud and patriotic. But that is not the issue here.

Were those on the losing side any less patriotic? How about the Nazis? Proud Germans every last one of them, I'll bet. But what they were doing in the name of that patriotic pride, was that right? That is the true question. Could I say that their pride was used to make many of them do what even they knew was inherently wrong? But could they oppose it....what happened to those who pointed out that it was wrong. And does there choice to oppose it make them any less patriotic?

When you begin to comprehend that idea, you begin to appreciate the dilemma such a convoluted concept presents.

Quote:

If you take a look at Patriotism in other lights, no less obscure, you'll find cheering for a favorite sporting team to be no less mind numbing. You see on smaller scales the effects of this from rioting when a team loses to rampant celebration when that team wins. In Canada, you see that with ice hockey. Extreme patriotism when we host the Canada Cup, when our team plays and when our team wins or loses. But in either case there is no rioting or anything of the sort. Not that I'm saying here that a nation needs to be viewed only by or judged on the staunch loyalty (Patriotism) of it's sports supporters. It's the quiet Canadian way.

One does not need to be patriot to support one's national team. Even one who disagrees with national policies is just as likely to be a vociferous supporter as any patriot. True such things promote national unity and a feeling unity. I experienced it first hand, quite recently, when India became the world champions in cricket. But I sincerely doubt everyone I celebrated with was a patriot.

Quote:

Also, when I read some of the above quotes, it seems that these learned minds are drawing a direct parallel that Patriotism is Communism - hmm, there's food for thought...just throwing it out there. Does that make communist countries more or less patriotic? Either way, does it make them stronger, or perhaps weaker? I'm certain these thoughts could be debated endlessly.

That would be an entirely different debate. However, I don't think they were drawing a direct correlation.

Quote:

A couple of other quotes relate to Patriotism as being nothing more than conceit..."believing and supporting your country from the viewpoint that it is because you were born there". Another way of looking at this would be supporting the country because you have taken a look at other countries around you and you have made the conscious decision that you feel very fortunate to have been born here. For that you are willing to protect this way of life through the necessary sacrifices because you believe in what you understand your country stands for. Again, be that right or wrong, be that educated opinion or somewhat blind devotion. Again though, if you take it out of the confining context of war, then you would see that the supporting and or defending of what you believe to be correct is not a bad thing. In my opinion the question did not have a direct correlation with it's being asked in a "war" context.

You can't go half way in something like this. It's relation to war is undeniable. War is where it is confirmed. How else would propose to defend you what believe to be right, when another is willing to use force to impose what he believes is right, on you?

Conceit is when you believe it right because your country believes it is, as the Nazis did. They make for an easy example because they took it to such extremes, esp with the whole White Aryan superior race thing. However if you look around you will find examples even in our recent history. Such as Bush's invasion of Iraq for non-existent WMDs.

Quote:

Again though I just wanted to point out that patriotism comes in many forms and in a lot of the instances people view it in the "war" aspect - sure it has been the strings by which the puppet masters control the masses, but it is not true, in my opinion that it can all be related only to war but to a great many other aspects of life.

I'm not saying that being patriotic is a bad thing. I am one after all. What I am saying, very simply is that, patriotism is a good idea that has been put to very many bad uses , foremost among them being war.

Quote:

Oh, I just wanted to add that in my opinion War is the greatest form of pornography there possibly could be

You'll have to explain that one!

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:17 am

Good responses WhiteViper. In as much as I agree with what I said earlier, I still agree with some of what you've written. The Nazi example is one that I see differently yet I can see exactly how this ties right in. Knowing some of the German peoples who lived under the Nazi Regime it is explained to me not as much as patriotism but rather a slightly greater chance at survival. The Nazi's were a core group that "forced" many German citizens to fight. Patriotism was not so much the option as "either fight for your country or we'll shoot you here and now". No, for a lot of people, they were no less patriotic but some were and of course one can apply that in any war or fight.

I've never had anything to do with war in my life, nor did my father, nor have any of my sons, it is to say that I look at it through the history books without having any knowledge of the reality in that I've never had first hand experience. Would I blindly run off and fight in a war? Perhaps, but I would be like many Americans in relation to Viet Nam. I would look at the reason and if I disagreed with it I probably would not. Again, is that treasonous? Directly translated - yes. In the sense of being knowledgeable and making a decision - no. It becomes a matter of belief. I know for myself it if was a cause I personally believed in that there is very little that could deter me and yes, I'd be willing to risk all, including my death and those of my family members to support that cause. If it was not, no way.

I believe my response was quite "surface" maybe because I've never been effected or perhaps I have a jaded point of view. Dying for one's country has not been something I've been faced with and dying for a cause one does not believe in is just madness - suicide in fact. So, perhaps I should have kept my opinions to myself, might have been better that way. I suppose one could liken it to "I don't know what I'm talking about."

Pornographic. There has been an ongoing debate in Canada about pornography...those in debate state that if there was no market for it then it would not sell, they say that these people are being forced to perform these sex acts - it is not a matter of choice it is a matter of circumstance or threat of violence if they don't do these things. Okay, that part of the debate anyway. I feel sending young men and women to countries to die because they are told to be patriotic and in that sense being forced to fall into a similar vein. That is why I argue sending people to war is therefore pornographic and that is the type that should be banned. I am speaking specifically on the matter of choice here and morals when clashed with duty. Maybe a very weak parallel but I just do not believe in the peoples of a country being sent to die for a piece of land or in a conflict that does not directly relate to them. I understand that there are threats, always have been and always will be. Largely though, it is my belief that unless it is a threat directly made against me then it is up to me to assist in settling that threat in ways that are less physical and deadly. I further believe in the value of a life and that person who just died had all the right to live as the person who just killed them. Whose to say...But should the "menace" come over my back fence threaten me or my family directly, they will die. That to me is real. When not seen in this fashion, I believe there are other ways. Perhaps I'm just being romantic and have my head up my butt but I believe that the fight - the over powering of might, is the last resort. Never having been in that position I guess I should keep my opinions to myself and just live my happy western Canadian existence.

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:13 am

I believe myself to be a patriot of Isohunt. I am proud of my time here. I have helped a few peeps, I have made some laugh and I have been helped many times also, and made to laugh. I have seen more heroism, and sadness, in some cases some threats of violence. All in all, I have felt I belong here, and feel more sense of worth than I have ever felt in my country of birth, or where I currently reside. Yes, I was born in Scotland, I still have relatives there, I live in the Midlands, but I am not proud of either fact. I am happy to be of Scottish heritage and happy to live in England, but find little to be proud of in either country. If I had to choose a 'real' aspect to be proud of, I would say I'm proud to be human and a native of Earth, I am a patriot of Earth Smile

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:30 am

^^Applauds...well said..I'm your earthly brother, brother!
Come have a drink with me! (Before that explain to me why does your location say "Hey bit**, I'm in space ... SPEAK UP...")

I'm a proud patriot of Isohunt too. Wink

I'm also a proud Indian (and a patriotic bloke..). But there are billions of 'em so I feel tiny and don't feel the intensity of uniqueness when I claim it lol. My grands were the freedom fighters; which left me as a great admirer of how the things rapidly improving around here (which is not as rapid as Japan's holocaust recovery was, still..).
Come, visit, enjoy the stuffs around here and do all that on your own lol..

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:26 am

today is the anniversary when 6 people died during a series of protests here in Bahrain a year ago. for a few weeks before today there were talks of another protest in a place they called Freedom Square, yet i have never heard of this place. they want to start it up again, and i don't know if this will be a repetition of a year past or will they start anew.

so far i have seen roadblocks posted in key places in Bahrain and and traffic in some places is a nightmare. i have also seen some areas where there is a lot of smoke and people threatening others to give up their tires for the burning. i have even seen people burning tires outside my house and in the middle on an intersection a few hundred yards from my house. i ask myself why would they do that and how does it help? the simple answer is nothing. there are these leaders of these small groups who send children out to do their dirty work, making Molotov cocktails and whatnot to throw at police officers and riot police. i have seen several these officers get hit with these bombs as set ablaze. this is not what some of the Shiites want, but what others who create trouble do to exploit the younger generation to their own malicious doings.

there was this HUGE puff of smoke coming from like a mile away in places like the commercial areas of Bahrain, and riot police in full gear getting ready for something. i can't say for sure if they are safe that way, but it is hard for anybody to take the side of a police officer as most people seems to think the protesters are right and everybody else is wrong. my Mum has been in touch with several officers and they seemed frightened they might get attacked.

two days ago i went to a rally to stop show my support for the people at Fateh Mosque [largest mosque in Bahrain]. a very good turnout. people first started arriving there at 3:00 am and stayed there listening to speeches and chanting their support. this rally didn't involve any of the Government nor did it show pictures of the Royal Family. this was a protest for Bahrain and its people. there were Sunnis as well as Shiites there showing they can stand side by side. it's not the first time either. last year we had a similar protest, but this time involved 500,000 people combining the Bahrainis Sunni and Shiite together as well as the expatriates living here.

i wish things can turn out better than last year, it has to. people need to learn from their mistakes or end up doing the same stuff that got us into trouble the first time. God only knows what the future holds for us.

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:33 am

I'm at my country, and I love my country, but I don't like the way how politicians are managing it, and I bet this subject will continue for a million of years because there always going to be corrupt politicians and good politicians, this is an endless fight...if you try to do something right, you get kicked from any politic job...why?, because you will bring out all the dirt business and all the unregistered cash that the bosses are receiving...it's hard to believe that a corp will raise and grow without making any dirty business.

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:13 am

February 14th came and went. did not have the turnout as previously planned. how did they fail? well too busy texting and tweeting to be honest. they had the will to do it again, but lacked the turnout.

February 21st last year at Al Fateh Mosque had a turnout of about 500,000 people. my Mum and a few of my aunts were lucky enough to attend. i could not attend cos i was recuperating from toe surgery and literally had to sit that one out. this year it was 200,000 almost half of last year. i as well as my Mum and our maid Kikim were there to witness it 15 minutes ago. we stayed there for 4 hours. during A'asha prayer [8:00pm] i went to pray and it was packed to the limit inside. people prayed inside the mosque, on the pavement, in the parking lot. we were there amongst all forms of Bahrainis. Sunni and Shiite alike. we chose to be there to show our support again. stayed there till our feet were aching. we waved our flags with others. Syrian flags and Saudi Flags as well.

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:23 pm

only just an hour ago i left my house to go for a walk in the direction of loud noises and barricaded streets. why? because out of boredom i decided i wanted to know what the other side was like. for twenty minutes i walked all round the neighborhood looking for some excitement and along the way i heard several loud bangs and booms in the distance.

it was only when i stopped at a certain point and turned around to go back to the house did things turn dangerous. as i was nearing my house, walking past people covered with masks and scarves to hide their identities did a canister of tear gas come shooting out of an alleyway. my first instinct was "RUN!" sadly when i did try to avoid it, the tear canister ricocheted of a wall and spiralled in my direction filling my face with gas. that stuff really hurts if you don't know how not to avoid inhalation which i fortunately was able to do, nonetheless it stung me. i tried to keep my eyes shut and take breaths sparingly whilst running away from the smoke that was clearly all around me. i finally escaped with a burning sensation. spitting, rubbing my eyes and blowing my nose all at the same time. i rushed home and splashed my face with as much water as i possibly could just to clear my vision and breath of tear gas.

now that was one of the most exhilarating moments of my life. you would think me stupid for going out like that, but to tell you the truth it was a good experience. i a Sunni walking into a Shiite neighborhood twice and came out relatively unharmed [i.e. they did not even touch me. sometimes i would say hello and they'd say it back.] people say it's turning into a sectarian warzone, yet i in all this disproved that. and if you think "oh it was dark, how could they really tell." let just say i have walked thru that neighborhood before and they all know who i am. i was not covered nor did i hide my face. they did not hint at anger towards me cos if they did i wouldn't be typing this i can assure you.