Scientology, cult or religion?

Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 7:47 pm

Scientology, the invention of one L. Ron Hubbard, a science fiction writer.
Scientology the supposed religion playing host to many celebrity members which you have probably heard such as Tom Cruise, Priscilla Presley, John Travolta and Kirstie Alley.

Recent documentary from the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/programmes/panorama/default.stm

latest news:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/6655207.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/4446572.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/5176010.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6255733.stm

More information from wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_scientology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard

Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 12:52 am

im sorry what was the debate again? lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology#Scientology_as_a_state-recognized_religion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology#Scientology_as_a_cult

Its interesting how various countries have a totally different reaction to Scientology when recognising the organisation as a religion. Its also funny how in " 1992, Scientology became the only religious organization convicted in criminal court on two counts of breach of the public trust (for an organized conspiracy to infiltrate government offices) following a trial by jury ." because its hardly the first Organisation to do so, and certainly not the most psychotic...

liquid alien sentience and symbiosis... ill buy that for a dollar Smile

Great list of links mdcdeve, though it would be interesting, if not polite, to know what you, the original poster, thinks of & towards Scientology.

That Panorama episode is available through torrent.

Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 2:52 am

i think you're may be missing the point, can anyone really define what the difference is between a religion and a cult?

if you use the various criteria on cult-watch websites and apply them to 'genuine' religions, they almost always fit.

how is it possible, for example, for catholicism not to be a cult?

Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 3:03 am

salvia_direct wrote:

i think you're may be missing the point, can anyone really define what the difference is between a religion and a cult?

if you use the various criteria on cult-watch websites and apply them to 'genuine' religions, they almost always fit.

how is it possible, for example, for catholicism not to be a cult?

Yea, I think there are some guidelines on deciding what is religion and what is a cult. A religion consists of things such as tradition, symbols, artifacts, dogma, doctrine, and a following. I'm not sure on the specifics, but I vaguely remember the details in a religion class I took in high school.

I think originally Christians were considered a cult, but I guess after a while you kind of grow into a religion I guess.

Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 3:16 am

so your differences essentially boil down to: religion = old, cult = new.

so the hare krisna cult is just less of a cult than scientology because it was invented a decade beforehand.
sikhism is a true religion, right? well, not according to that definition, it's only been around since about 1700 or something, so does that make it a new religion or a old cult?

Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 4:59 am

Quote:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
re·li·gion [ri-lij-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic. religious rites.
8. Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.

—Idiom9. get religion, Informal. a. to acquire a deep conviction of the validity of religious beliefs and practices.
b. to resolve to mend one's errant ways: The company got religion and stopped making dangerous products.

[Origin: 1150–1200; ME religioun (< OF religion) < L religi?n- (s. of religi?) conscientiousness, piety, equiv. to relig(?re) to tie, fasten (re- re- + lig?re to bind, tie; cf. ligament) + -i?n- -ion; cf. rely]

Quote:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
cult [kuhlt] Pronunciation Key
–noun 1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3. the object of such devotion.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
7. the members of such a religion or sect.
8. any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.

–adjective 9. of or pertaining to a cult.
10. of, for, or attracting a small group of devotees: a cult movie.

[Origin: 1610–20; < L cultus habitation, tilling, refinement, worship, equiv. to cul-, var. s. of colere to inhabit, till, worship + -tus suffix of v. action]

edit: Sorry about the post spam for anyone that saw it. Was testing something.

Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 6:45 am

salvia_direct wrote:

i think you're may be missing the point, can anyone really define what the difference is between a religion and a cult?

if you use the various criteria on cult-watch websites and apply them to 'genuine' religions, they almost always fit.

how is it possible, for example, for catholicism not to be a cult?

Did you mean im missing the point? Because if you notice i start of my post with two links, regarding Scientology as a cult versus a religion. The information from the wiki sections explored its status across the globe and the legal requirements it meets or fails to meet in different countries.

So im not missing the point, your missing the links lol

And i agree with you on how mainstream religions being cults, i think the main difference is, at the end of the day, Tax Exemption!

Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 10:46 am

I believe them to be far more akin to a cult than religion. Much more on unorthodox and extremist actions and less on faith and beliefs.

Quote:

In Scientology no one is asked to accept anything as belief or on faith. That which is true for you is what you have observed to be true. An individual discovers for himself that Scientology works by personally applying its principles and observing or experiencing results.

They are vague on everything, and no one can express true feelings on this because they dont tell you the true meaning about anything they do. Only the highest up can know, the rare few people that have been high enough up in scientology have been silenced when they tried to reveal the truth. Theres too much to be said that i can put into words right now but from the outset of their actions so far they are dangerous and destructive, specially to anyone who seeks the truth or questions them in any way. That can't be said of all their members of course, this is generally with the higher up members.. but then again, no one knows this for certain.

If anyone wanted to see the panorama episode you can see it at the link but as was said previsouly torrent aswell which would be better quality.

salvia_direct wrote:

i think you're may be missing the point, can anyone really define what the difference is between a religion and a cult?

You can define between the 2, religion and cult are words created by us along with their exact definitions. But debates are based on opinions and not dictionary definitions.

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 2:51 am

Religion, cult... not much of a difference. But I'll say cult, since they make you pay. *cough Phelps*

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:54 pm

HBS wrote:

Its interesting how various countries have a totally different reaction to Scientology..." .

I was really surprised, this week, to hear that Germany would not let Tom Cruise film a move there because he was a Scientologist.

Really surprised. Where I live you can believe whatever you want. The only laws that apply to all of us and all religions would the be normal one's you'd expect everywhere: Your religion can't involve killing people, kidnap, rape, stealing, etc.

Other than that I think one person's cult is another person's religion and one persons religion is another person's cult.

And if we don't allow people to have varied idea, or to develop ideas (that don't involve killing people, kidnap, rape, stealing, etc.) I wouldn't like it, myself; it would mean we stuck in the past; it would mean we'd be stuck with the rules of Old Authority, often dusty and rigid.

I belong to a cult, BTW. But it's a non-religious cult. It' an Ult. I like my ult. And if we can't make a film in German than we'll make it in Poland.

Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:02 pm

i have voted for cult

Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:21 pm

I vote they are all a bunch of f**ked up half wits who like giving money to a dead bloke ! Wink

Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:39 pm

citizenbfk wrote:

[...] Where I live you can believe whatever you want. The only laws that apply to all of us and all religions would the be normal one's you'd expect everywhere: Your religion can't involve killing people, kidnap, rape, stealing, etc.
[...]
And if we don't allow people to have varied idea, or to develop ideas (that don't involve killing people, kidnap, rape, stealing, etc.) I wouldn't like it, myself; it would mean we stuck in the past; it would mean we'd be stuck with the rules of Old Authority, often dusty and rigid.

In principle it's no different in Germany, the implementation is just less haphazard.

Scientology has a well known history of harming their members, and actively seeking out new members to harm - physically and psychologically. That's why Germany takes the stance that it does. It's not that you aren't allowed to believe in Scientology. You're just not allowed to be part of a cult that f***s people up. And if you are part of such a cult, you're not welcome in their society. It's no different than the US rejecting someone at the border, when the person is known to conspire with murderers.

I don't know what a Ult. is, but if you tell me, I can probably tell you if it has any bearing on your ass being welcome in Germany - and Poland, for that matter. Also, Poland is a terrible example of religious tolerance. Only one flavour of one religion is tolerated in that country, and if you're not of it, you should keep quiet about it, because both people in general, and public servants, take offence. I'd know, I've lived there.

Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:18 pm

Scientology is just a wierd cult that bored celebrities take an interest in, which leads to mass stupidity.

Still makes more sense than the bible, though.

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:17 pm

eaststand wrote:

Still makes more sense than the bible, though.

dude, i don't care if you aren't christian at all, scientology doesn't come close to any logic. if you can take for granted miracles and God, Christianity makes good sense. scientology just doesn't f**kin compute, even given miracles and xenu. it doesn't have any historical grounding, just some jackass figured out how to get rich off of dumb people.

Scientology is more than a cult, it is the new mafia hiding in sheeps clothing. they destroy people's lives, kill people, extort money, intimidate. they have all the characteristics of the mafia, but worse in that they hide behind protection granted to religion in most countries. I think scientology should be considered an illegal organization and its leaders thrown in prison. of course, that will never happen. it would be a huge win for everyone if our american government considered it a non-religion like in Germany.